Off the Deck
Golf is so much more than the scorecard and those birdies that are rarely made. It's about the people you meet along the way. From lifelong bonds to unexpected fast friends, Off the Deck highlights the lives and stories built through the game of golf.
Off the Deck
The Art of Architecture with Ben Malach
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In this episode, Ben Malach of Eclectic Golf shares his journey from caddying at St. Andrews to designing innovative golf courses worldwide. Discover his insights on golf architecture, course design principles, and the importance of understanding landscape and history.
https://www.eclecticgolfdesign.com/
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Driver off the deck for coin cutter is driver off the deck they're hoping to the driver off the deck. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01You have to put your foot on the gas. You pull out the driver off the deck and you put it on the drain all the way up the hill. Welcome back to another episode of Off the Deck. Today's episode is brought to you by Idaca Golf. I am rocking uh one of the pieces from their new Miami drop. Summers right around the corner. Uh this stuff is absolutely killer. Visit ideca.gov. That's id aka.gov to check out the entire Miami drop plus the Capri Polo and the Sebastian hoodie. And use promo code OTD25 for 25% off your purchase. Uh again, that's IDAKA.gov and promo code OTD25 for 25% off. Mr. Ben Malik, welcome to Off the Deck. How are you doing? Good, man. How are you? I am doing great. Thanks for taking time to chat. We've been trying to get this on the books now, it feels like for literal months. Um, but you've been jet setting all over the place and time zones and all that. So glad we could finally sit down and and have a discussion.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm even moving out of my apartment today. So I just like really needed to get this in.
SPEAKER_01So it's like yeah. Um okay. Well, I'll try not to drag it out too terribly long. Um big deal. So what is you are you own eclectic golf. Um tell me about what you do um and what you're working on right now that I want to go into your background. Uh obviously I'm wearing the Fields Club Visor because we both have uh an immense amount of love and respect for everything that Ashley and Mike Young Dunn have done there. So I want to talk about that. Um and just dive right in.
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, so I run eclectic. Um, it's a small design-built golf firm. Um our clients range from you know me being booked on as a shaper with some bigger firms on some bigger projects or you know, small um course renovation and like advising in that capacity with agronomic stuff and you know, getting that like a little bit of architecture uh in a good dollar, which is you know what the young's really taught me at the fields, and uh bring that to a wider audience. Um, so it's a really diverse firm, and that's kind of why I needed eclectic. It's like, you know, um I can be working with a small new build project one day and then the next day I'm literally like doing historical research for uh big renovation that we're working on next year. So so what what projects are you working on right now? Um right now I'm currently working at uh Burrow Oaks or Crossing Waters. Um, and then I have a few other um ones in the in the books like Norfolk. Um doing a little bit of work out there and um maybe in Le Chute, Quebec, and then I have a few new builds that we're kind of trying to get started.
SPEAKER_01So I was reading your biography, and I love that you were, I think it was at University of Calgary, that you were in school and were like, no, I'm not doing this. I'm going to Scotland. I'm going to go caddy and be a starter at the the Lynx at St. Andrews. Uh tell me about just that and what that experience was like, but also just packing up and moving over there in the middle of going to college.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I've been doing like just too much. Like, I'm just I'm just a big ball energy. If you get to know me, um, I'm always saying yes, always trying to do more and more. And um, it's why I love what I get to do in golf, because I get to do a lot of different things. Um, and so like that as a young man in college, like trying to figure out how your life works, you just end up kind of getting burnt out. And I was like seeing my friends take a little gap years in the middle of their degrees. And I thought that was smart because you kind of already started and like it was a reason to come back, so you weren't kind of lost out there like you do if you start doing first, you might never like figure out what you're doing with life and just kind of float. So I was like, okay, this all makes sense. And so I'd always loved golf, and I knew that like it was pretty easy to get a work visa to the UK as a Canadian, so I just kind of popped over there and you know found a apartment close to links and just kind of applied for jobs and just kind of ended up being the start of the old course based on, you know, working at an indoor driving range in Calgary and having a good interest in the game.
SPEAKER_01When you found out you were getting a job at the old course, uh, I mean, did you grow up loving the game of golf and and know the importance of the old course, or was that something you were learning about before you got over there?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I grew up with golf. Um, ironically, it was my mom who got me to the game. And uh I found out um that I got the job. We were actually in Innsbruck, Austria, actually, and shoot, the the town in Austria escapes me. We were in Austria watching ski races, and we had to fly back through um Vienna like the night before and like try to get up to St. Andrews so I can make my first orientation for the old course. And like, you know, um growing up as golfers, like it's just always been the home of golf. Like I can remember my grandpa talking about Grump going there, like he had coasters of all the old famous Lynx courses that he had in his little basement man cave, and you know, St. Andrews was one of them. And what one of his favorite golf hats was his St. Andrews hat, and like so St. Andrews was big in our life, and so like for me to get the chance to live there and like truly work there and just know it, um, you know, it's one of the greatest gifts I've ever given myself, you know. Uh just spend time there.
SPEAKER_01What was day-to-day like being the starter at the home of golf?
SPEAKER_00Um, so I always did the afternoon shift, so they had the more experienced guy handle the mornings and do all the the lists and stuff. So I'd be there to help out sometimes, or if I was coming through with that, which was really, really interesting to see because we still did the old school you sleep overnight when I was there. So it was like really fun to hear those stories and like a little bit about that. Um, by my by the time we've been passed off to me, um, uh it's just getting people out so you're talking with everyone, every group. Some groups want you as a loudspeaker and announce their names, other groups don't. Okay. Um you're not really told about who's on your t-sheet until like you walk in. So, like, you know, we could have a VIP out on the golf course, you know what I mean? All this other stuff. You're just kind of like you just bouncing around, and it's like super fun because I was never a guy who just sat in the box the whole time. I'd try to get the the financial stuff taken care of if it needed to, but like a lot of the guests have been prepaid and everything or just checking in as members, so that was like two clicks of a button, and I was outside. So and it's gotten even better now with the new check-in system. So I just kind of sit out and talk to tourists, make sure that it was all cool, and just kind of try to tell people the story of the old course and try to get them as like enthusiastic about this place as I am, because I I truly it's truly my heart. Like, literally, the like the 18th and first fairway there is like a place that like every time I go there, I just feel an immense call. You know what I mean? I've never I've been I can remember having some really bad to tough days and like just even just standing on that fairway for five minutes, walking across Granny Clarks is like just nope, like you're good. Um you you just feel pure, you know, and cleansed. And so it's just that's every day there. That's incredible.
SPEAKER_01That that um yeah, that's really special. I didn't know that you had such a a love and appreciation for the place. Um, I have never been. Uh obviously I want to go, uh, as does anybody who loves the game of golf. Um how how many loops did you get around the old course working there?
SPEAKER_00Working there, probably about 60, and then I probably played around 45 on my own, so I would have done over a hundred loops. That's all what's your favorite hole? 13. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Tell me about 13.
SPEAKER_0013, um, it's like the first long part four on the back. Um, you've just, you know, come out of the corner of the loop and you're heading down to the first big double that's shared with um five, right? So um it's that big tabletop except the right hand side is guarded by these two bunkers, and in the fairway, it's the the coffin bunkers, and then the ending hazard is um this big mound that you can end up getting stuck in if you hit it too long. And it's this honestly, this endless chestmaster, depending on how far left you want to push it, it brings the brings the coffins more into play. And if your runout's bad over there, you have really no safe angle into the green. But if you play short, you're gonna have a longer angle into the green, but then you have to worry about running it out up the hill because if you have the uphill lie, it launches it a little bit. Okay, so then it's like really hard to control the spin. And it's like just the green and the surrounds on that thing are just so cool. Um, so like you can end up in really interesting spots, and it's just you're constantly for me, it's one of the core holes in the old course that really shows how much work you have to do to play well there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, so when you went over there, did you already had you already decided, or even when you went to college, did you decided you wanted to work in golf, or was that something that evolved over time?
SPEAKER_00No, honestly, it was something that happened there. Um, so I was doing international relations before. Um, and you know, I loved that stuff. Like I really enjoy talking about travel and different cultures and understanding how we can work together and stuff. So it was always something that was like in my in my blood to be a little bit of a team builder. Um, but you know, hanging out in the links of St. Andrews, getting to meet a whole bunch of really cool people, and then just noticing the similarities in between the landscape that I grew up in in southern Alberta, which was like an old seabed, and the Lynx land, which are old seabeds in St. Andrews and Scotland. So I was just like, hey, why doesn't our golf resemble this? And that's all been a like a big quest for me in my life is figuring out the history of that and that story. Um, and so I was like, oh, like it's so easy because you just do this and this and this and this. Because it's like pretty simple once you've seen like I really took it as a I had this limited amount of time there. I had some money in my pocket and I knew enough people in golf that I could get around to seasonal thoughts. So I really took it upon myself to go see as much golf as I could when I was over there. So I saw a lot of great golf and it just became like you know, part of my just the way that I think and the way that I experience golf is like how to like either make it better, how does it make me feel, or what I want to do with it. You know, it's like I just love the game.
SPEAKER_01And so it's is interesting you say that because there are I don't know that I've ever thought about it in the context that you just mentioned that golf courses I I have fun when I play golf, right? Like that's I hope I'm having fun when I'm playing golf, otherwise I should be behind a computer working. But yeah, but golf courses do evoke, despite regardless of the joy that I'm having while I'm playing, they also do evoke different emotions. And it can be a something that's very challenging, very difficult, very trying, or it can be wide open fairways, hit it as hard as you want, and it it's not truly a test. And I know I'm not doing great uh a great job articulating that, but I think that's what I'm hearing you say. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Sort of, in some ways. I think like for me, it's about how they respond to and why they are how they lay upon the landscapes. Like, okay, I think a great example is like just to bring it back to a point of calm reference, is like the Fields Club, right? Like, there's nowhere else that feels like that in the world, and it's the reason why, and yeah, their fairways are 150 yards wide, but you better be in that like little 25-yard window box if you want to have like a chance to go for the green, and it's like, and guys, you get out them out there for the first time, they're like, Oh, this is easy, the fairways are are uh crazy wide, and you're like, Yeah, man, but like you gotta really like you know, like the first time you see someone hit driver on like five, and they're down in that little ditch, and it's just like, Well, this is gonna end really great for them, like you know what I mean. You're like laying back with a three-wood, and you're just like, Okay, I'll just let you have that. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01So is uh I love that in how did you get connected? Being a guy from Canada, how did you end up connected with Mike and Ashley Young in Lagrange, Georgia?
SPEAKER_00Um, I met them through Golf Club Atlas. Um, I was really lucky early on in my early 20s to get on that website, like back in the good old days.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00And what is it?
SPEAKER_01I'm not familiar with that website. What what is that or was that?
SPEAKER_00Um, so like golf club atlas back in the good old days was like the it was like where all the golf architects hung out and talked golf. So it's still a great resource to this day because it's all a forum, so it was all searchable, and like everyone in these long-running forums was guys like Tom Doak or you know, Rob Rob King, like Rob Collins was there, Tad Tad was in there a little bit, Gil Hance was in there. Whoa. Um, so like it was like all these guys talking, and so I kind of as a and it used to be this kind of there's only a certain run of memberships, and like I kind of talked my way on there being this young kid from Canada. There's an underrepresentation from Canadians, and um, you know, I just kind of got into that world. And so like when I wanted to do this stuff and when I really took it seriously, like Mike gave me little chances here and there to like get get involved or do something for him if he needed a hand, because like I do it for cheap or free, and Mike's always looking for a deal. Um, and so you know, he was really you know helpful whenever I'd have a question, like I could send him an email or a DM and he'd like get back to me, and like he was like a really good guy to know. Um, and then we ended up working on a couple projects together, and it was like just really helpful, you know, at the start of my career. Just a really good mentor and just someone who like him and his son just really took me under their wing and just taught me a lot about the game and like how to uh how to do things, you know.
SPEAKER_01That's really, really cool. I mean, I and that's one of the things that like just this podcast, but even on a grander scale, the story you just told about how golf brings people together from all walks of life, from all over the place. Um, because uh in in no other world does a 20-year-old from Canada end up in LaGrange, Georgia, of all places. Um, that's that's very cool. So yeah, is is that something you worked with them on Fields Club? Or I did do some renovations work there for them.
SPEAKER_00Okay, what and tell me about that. Uh it was cool. I mean, um I was down there a couple times for a few weeks, um, just you know, putting in bunkers. I did um I did a lot of bunker deletion. So like um that shipping area on the right side of eight is all me. Um that was a big old bunker, and you know it's all gnarly and like moving. That's that's all my, you know, just me sitting there with an excavator and a rake and a couple guys, and just trying to make something that was like I don't we said we wanted it to be harder when we took the bunker out, and now it's definitely harder until we took the bunker out. Like you do not want to be right on that green anymore. That used to be kind of the bailout um for a lot of the better players, and or you know, um we put in the bunker on the back of two, um the back of two fairway. Okay. Uh that helps push people away from the T but it's a nice siding bunker and it really puts that fairway together.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00Um, I did all the tree clearing around um three green um in the excavator. Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Great golf works for the listeners who haven't played Fields Club. Uh what is it? Is it it's a maybe a 300-yard dog leg?
SPEAKER_00Less than that if you take it over the trees. Like I've I've seen guys hit it with three woods. Over the trees, but it's like you don't want to do that. Like that, this was just a couple of local guys, and like you like yeah, they know the line, and they're we're just kind of joking joking around with some stuff. But like, no, like you can but like most of the good players are hitting mid-irons to the center of the fairway and trying to hit wedges down to the screen, and it's it's really fun, it's a really fun hole. Or if you want to get spicy, like some of the guys are turning two irons over. Okay. Um, just because like the thing is, is like the Fields Club is the closest place that you get to playing like UK golf in the south. Like, there's like shots you have to hit around there that like you're only really hitting on like Heathland's courses around London. Like, it's it's amazing. It's like one of my favorite places because of that. And so if you know like how to how to play well, you can get some big advantages, you know. Um, and they've done a they've done a really good job with how and that's the thing, right? So that's kind of the architecture that I'm talking about. Is like it's simple, it's lay of the land, it's not fussy, you can maintain it for no money, and that's what like works, but like the way that it pushes the better player um is awesome, but the way that it like is a you know, a guy can bring his kid around there and they can still have fun. I mean, except for there's like a couple bad carries, but like those are getting better.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, so I don't know. That's kind of where I'm at with it. Um, and my architecture, and that's what I learned from those guys. I love that. Um, I love that. And do it all yourself, too. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Well, and yeah, and that's the the first time I went to the fields, or I've only been once, but I I got a couple loops around it. I had no idea that the changes in elevation were there in Lagrange, Georgia. I mean, I've I'm somewhat familiar with Georgia. My in-laws live in Georgia, about two hours south of Lagrange. Um but had no clue that there were gonna be hills and and uh slopes that there were. Uh, was not expecting that at all and had an absolute blast. I mean, it it's a golf course that makes you think, but it's also a golf course that doesn't kill you. Like and and I love how you said it. Like you're like, yeah, like there, if you want to hit driver on, I don't I think you said it was eight or whichever hole it was, yeah, you can hit driver down there, but there's trouble. There's lots of trouble, and that's not even remotely the play. I mean, you better hit it absolutely perfect and have some incredible control of the golf ball, otherwise you're bringing a lot of trouble into play, and that's just not so yeah, I I had a blast down there and can't wait to get back. And the whole vibe is is fun because most of the time, and that's one of the things that's so great about Sweeten's Cove, most of the time when you have that great architecture and that fun environment or that fun, thought-provoking golf course, it comes at a very hefty price tag with incredible restrictions and no music and shirts tucked in. And I appreciate that in the right m moments and times, but there's just something about the Fields Club that just flourishes with that kind of laid back approach.
SPEAKER_00I mean, that's golf in the rest of the world, really. Like, I mean, not necessarily the the music and stuff, but more laid back. Like, I mean, I do an annual trip to the UK every year um to because it fills my cup. It's the same thing as going to Sweden's for you guys. Um, because I can like literally like walk there, hang out there. There's a guy walking his dog. You know what I mean? Like, if you want to have a beer out there, you can have a beer out there. No one's gonna bother you. Like, you can bring your own beer because no one cares, they're not trying to sell money on beer, right? They're they're just they're just a golf course, man. It's not and the conditions aren't like they're not bad, but like, you know what I mean? Like, they're not like pure mono stands of grass, which is like kind of weird. Like, you know what I mean? Um, I I just think like if you look at both what sweetens do, sweetens in the field do well, is that they're you know, products of their environment, right? The reason why everything's low to the ground and all the greens are built up like they are is because that's how they have to survive in the floodplain down there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, those big sand bunkers are great ways for them to hide the drainage that they need to drain that golf course a little quickly to get it under play. And so if the bonkers are wasty and shitty, like they can like get away with it. Um, you know, uh they're they're both boulder golf courses, especially when you think that the fields go was built in like the late 80s. That's a golf course from 1987.
SPEAKER_01What does boulder golf courses mean?
SPEAKER_00Um well, you think about it, like how many golf courses do you play? And I can describe every green as having a singular tilt to one exit point, so it drains to one point or one angle. Yep. Right? Um, how and then I can tell you that like it'll be drained, it'll be bunkered usually on the side that the green tilts towards that the it receives the shot, right? So then the green wraps around it, right? And then you look in the fairway, and there's probably two bunkers staggered like this at like around your landing area. Yeah. So you can't miss it right or left. And so then you know what I mean? That's what I mean by like they're boulder golf courses, they make you think they're not Jonesy and they're not like trying to like just do the same thing over and over again and beat you to death, like some of the Robert Trent John Strail stuff is, right? Like they they they have features that make you remember them. Yeah, like I can tell you, like, you know, I played some of the Jones Trail stuff, and like I can tell you one or two holes on some of those courses, but I can't talk to you about like the 15th or 16th at a lot of them, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01Like so I do not, and I've born and raised in in Birmingham, lived here my entire life, yeah, and I have yet to I mean Ross Bridge, I don't think falls into the category of the Robert Trent Jones golf trail. Maybe it does. Um, but I don't care for the RTJ courses. I feel like all the fairways slope away on both sides. So if you hit a ball with any movement that isn't in the dead center of the fairway, it ejects you right into the woods. And I'm I'm a 9.5 handicap. And so it just uh that those are so penal, I think, on every single hole that I I have not enjoyed them. I had a blast playing Ross Bridge. Ross Bridge is fantastic. Um because I I think it was a thought-provoking golf course where big fairways, like we've already talked about, but if you didn't hit it in the right spot of that big fairway, you're hosed. You have no hope at all of trying to get it close to the pin, depending on the angle of approach from where you hit it in that 100-yard wide fairway. Um, but yeah, sorry, I had to go on a tangent on RTJ. Go ahead. No, no, I can't say that.
SPEAKER_00I think it's good to mention because like um I the best thing I can do as like someone with what I do is like talk about how you can experience all this stuff in your own backyard and how we can start encouraging the market to make choices towards rewarding the places that are doing the right things. Yeah, that's good.
SPEAKER_01So projects we you kind of touched on projects right now that you've already you're already working on. Um you've done some work at Poppy Ridge, um, and then eclectic. Uh, one of your, I guess your tagline, excuse me, is design, build, refresh. How much designing are you doing? How much building, and then refreshing, I assume, falls under the category like restoration, that that kind of restoration, yeah, that stuff.
SPEAKER_00So I'm doing it all in different phases. Um, building, as anyone can tell you, takes some time. Um, we're in permits on a couple of courses and really working with some stuff. Um uh the building we're doing all the time, like that's kind of my bread and butter right now is helping other people build or like get stuff done. Um, like the reason why the the youngs hired me is I'm one of the few guys that can pretty much do it all. Like, I if you need me to help build your irrigation system, I can help you do the irrigation. I've done drainage systems. I the unsexy side of golf as I call it, you know what I mean? The contractor stuff, and so you know, or I am doing the shaping. Like a lot of the times now I'm like really just you give me a set of detailed plans, and I'm just gonna make that thing look good and I'm gonna make all those alterations and make it work for you, and that way we can simplify this process of communication between the club and everyone. So that's kind of where I do a lot of the time now, just because it's like really easy for me to fit the office stuff in at the end of the day or the start of the day, and then I can you know go spend eight, nine hours, you know, reworking a golf course. And so I just finished Anningale um right now. Um Wilshire also just opened up, which is gonna be hosting the LPG tour here pretty soon up.
SPEAKER_01Nice.
SPEAKER_00Um, so yeah, so stuff like that is where I'm spending most of my time, and then you know, trying to get all the time to find the the new builds and some of the refreshing stuff, like at what we're doing at Norfolk and Leshoux. So Norfolk is a really cool nine-hole course in southwestern Ontario. It's in the sand dunes off of one of the Great Lakes. So it's 110 feet of sand. It's a nine-hole course, and all we're trying to do is just try to like it's one of the oldest courses in Canada. It's from the early 1900s. Um, and we're just trying to like polish it up and give it that old school 1900s look, and just try to like re refine and hone into like what the best version of this place was because it's one of the few places I don't have to haul in greens mix to do greens expansion or do greens change. That's how good the soils are there. It's like super, super special. Like we're we're really lucky to have what we have there, and so we're just trying to take care of it and trying to be stewards of it. And so that's kind of the stuff that we're really working with out of collector.
SPEAKER_01So, how much I mean, are you on the road 40 weeks a year, or what is what does that look like?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm on the road about that much. Um, it it's been a lot better since I've like kind of like figured out a situation where I'm more home-based out of here out of Los Angeles. Okay. Um and that's where it's home now. But like, I mean, I still spend you know a good amount of time in Calgary in Canada, so it's like it's it's just bouncing and trying to figure out what works best for me. Um, and it's it's just complicated, and I just try to I just try to do as much as I can uh with the amount of time I have in my life.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, and and you're juggling, I mean, and some of this, uh I guess when a job becomes available, like if the youngs call you and want help with something, you have to have the bandwidth to add that to your schedule when they want to do it. I mean, that that's how do you juggle all of that?
SPEAKER_00I try to. Um, it's tough. I mean, I'm I'm also signed, I also signed a lot of deals, right? So like I've got Burl Oaks this summer, but like we've made some real good progress there, so I have some openings, so I'm trying to like fill people in there too. But then like it's also construction. So like if a permit or um say a weather event happens, like that might push back that schedule, and then I my availability moves and that window moves, right? Because I've been signed to that contract, so it's like very, very fluid, very, you know. Um, my girlfriend is like very like happy that I have a patient personality because if I was like a type A, like everything needs to be planned and fit in its like tight little box, like I would go crazy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, but uh it's just you know, kind of being an expert in chaos is kind of being an is a being a golf architect. And um, I think that's one of my favorite parts of my job is I don't know necessarily how all the pieces are gonna get fit together, but I just have belief and faith that we're gonna find the right way and the right path, right?
SPEAKER_01So uh who if you have uh I guess if you were to pick an architect that you have studied the most of, or someone that you there you have just poured yourself over poured over their work, who would who would that be?
SPEAKER_00Um I'm a big Tom Simpson guy. He's probably my number one, him or Perry Maxwell. Okay. Um and or Harry's he done that I would be familiar with. Um probably the most famous one would be like La Hinch in Ireland. Yeah, yeah. Um, or like Woking. He did some work there in New Zealand and outside of London. Um obviously Harry Colt is probably the biggest name. Um and so he was obviously the mentor of Alistair McKenzie. Um his biggest stuff in North America is probably like Old Elm or um shoot, I always forget the one he did outside of um Detroit, but he did some stuff, Oakland Hills, I think. Okay. So um, and he was also the main advisory architect at Pine Valley. Okay. So um that's and then Perry Maxwell's obviously, um Prairie Dunes, you know, uh Old Town Club, pretty much all the best stuff at Augusta. Um just a legend in the game, you know, just um especially in the south. Um, and did a lot in a period of time where there was no budget, no money, and he made places better by simplifying them, which is why I really liked his philosophy and architecture. It was like a really nice decoding system for like a lot of stuff.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, and then I've also deeply studied Stanley Thompson just as a Canadian. It's important to understand Thompson. Okay. Um, I don't know if you know anything about Stan. I do not.
SPEAKER_01No, tell me.
SPEAKER_00Educate me. Okay, so this so Stanley Thompson is um probably like Canada's Donald Ross. Okay. Um, he's got a course everywhere, and this is partially due to a partnership he formed with the Canadian government through and other railways. So he built courses in all our national parks and around the country. And uh why he's and so his most famous courses are like BAF, which is in all the Tiger Woods games. Um, he also did Jasper, which was Alistair McKenzie said was one of the best inline courses he's ever seen. Um Cabot Highlands, which is you know in the top, I think it's in the top 50 in the world or top 100 in the world. Um St. George's where they held the Canadian Open a few years ago, and then Capolano in Vancouver, which is well regarded. Those are his big five courses, all probably top 100 in the world. And so the cool thing about Stan is that he kind of invented the modern style architecture um of like pet penal bunkering and and monoslopes and simplifying architecture down to those basic elements. Um and he taught that architecture down to Robert Trent Jones, who worked for him for um five to ten years in the 1920s and 30s, before he went and worked for Green Lake, and to the point where when he was applying for those jobs in Upper State New York, which are for his first courses, he referenced the work that he did for Stanley Thompson at Banff and Capalina. That's cool. Yeah. So um that's stuff that like is like really so it's really cool foundational stuff. And so it was like not that I'm necessarily a big fan of Stanley Thompson, but it was like something that I've I've had I've done in like I said, one of the bigger things in my career was figuring out where the architecture came from in my home province and why it's different than um the architecture of the UK, even though I I found an a Harry Colt course that got paid over for a highway. So Harry Colt was there in Calgary. Um, we had three Willie Park Junior courses um that only one exists now. Um, you know what I mean? So we found we had this cool basis of architecture, and how did we lose it? So it's like this very it was this puzzle, you know what I mean? Because I wasn't wrong the land was good. I wasn't wrong that there was good architecture here. I just had to tell the story of what happened to it. Like we had one of the first municipal golf courses built in uh built uh west of the Mississippi, um built by Tom Bendelow in 1903.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Right? Like this is like, and then like it just got rerouted in the 80s, and so and part of it got sold for a subdivision. It's like you're you just like this is like the type of stuff that I love to do, right? So um it like helps influence my career and like everything because like I'm just I you'll learn, you know what I mean? Like everything's connected to everything, and that's kind of why golf is eclectic, right?
SPEAKER_01Like, yeah. Well, and you you don't know where you're gonna go if you don't know where you've been. And exactly, and all the detective work and and research that you've done, I'm sure, has played a huge role in uh your design efforts and the things that you like to see and the things that you want to put into golf courses. Um has eclectic, have you have you been engaging with anyone yet about designing a full 18 holes on your own?
SPEAKER_00We we have um it's not necessarily 18, okay, but we have some stuff in the planning that there's like different looks on golf. Um, I think that's kind of where the spaces for um younger people to get into the new build space. Um, I don't think unless you're lucky to be um Blake Connet or Brian Scheider, who you know are older than me and have spent more time in the game than me, you're not necessarily gonna walk into a situation like old Barnbow.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00So um I've got a couple people that are doing some good stuff. Oh, my camera's cutting in and out because of battery. Um, but yeah, that's kind of what's going on with me. Okay, cool. Um, well, uh if your battery, if your uh camera's cut in the battery, if the camera, the camera will just cut in and out, uh the all the audio will say good.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay, perfect.
SPEAKER_00Well, for people on YouTube, sorry. You're stuck with my mug for a little while. I apologize. Yeah, it's just I I use my webcam because my camera on my web laptop is like really busted.
SPEAKER_01So no, that's fine. Um, so if you had to design the perfect golf hole, um, because you're you're this you're the first architect that I've had on the show. What would the perfect golf hole look like for you?
SPEAKER_00Um one of my favorites was a the old version of the first hole at the new course.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00It's like 324 yards. Um there's a bunker out to the right, um, some like 280 to 225. Uh the green starts at like, you know, uh 260 and goes um all the way back to 29 uh 290. No, 300, sorry. And so it's like it's a driving pitch hole with like a little mound in the center. And so it's like just a very, very cute, just like you've got to play with this mound, and depending on where the pin is, you want to challenge the bunker on the days that the pin's different, you want to challenge the mound, and it's just simple, you know what I mean? And it's like all about the green, and just a simple green, you know what I mean? That's just a little built up. Like, no, I'm not talking built up a lot, I'm talking six inches off the ground because like if you putt it, it'll bring the pitch. You know what I mean? It just it just that's six inches up is like the worst thing you can do to a golfer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like it's like it's just enough that you want to hit a pitch, but it's just it's not enough that like you should, you should putt that. Yeah. But then it's gonna totally screw you. Yeah, yeah, because you can like then you know it's just bringing you on to play, right? And it's like if you don't, it can bounce, it can do weird stuff.
SPEAKER_01Right. So is that your I mean, other than 13 at the old course, is that your just ideal golf hole?
SPEAKER_00I think it's a good way to explain a lot of my principles. It's about using one bunker in the fair way and using it judiciously. Um, and it's about using natural slopes and contours and creating a simple golf hole that like works at a drivable length that like you don't necessarily want to try to drive that because like that that can that sucks, right?
SPEAKER_01Like, right. That's great. I love that you said that because number five at Sweeten's Cove, I think might be my favorite golf hole ever. Yeah, I love number five at Sweeten's. It's it's a it's a drivable par four, but if you drive it and miss the green, you might make a seven. Yeah. And and there's something about that, like especially in Sweetens, is built as a match play golf course, which I love. And so the the beauty in that of okay, where does the match stand? Do I need to take my medicine and hit just slap a seven iron out here and then hit a wedge? But you've got that green that's it's receptive, but if like I said, if you miss, there's no telling what you're walking off with.
SPEAKER_00I just think that like that's what Rob and the boys did there really well is especially when you're playing different pins the entire day. Yeah, and you're like playing different pins, different T's, like you can really have spots where you want to go and spots where you don't. Yeah. And it's like super fun, especially when you get to play there a little bit more. Um, I've had the lucky I think I put it three or four times now. Okay. And it's just been, you know, great every time. Um it's a special place. I miss the old times where you could just walk and play nine and then sneak up to uh uh Swanee and like get the the Valley Nine, the Valley 18 in.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I I was told recently that that was supposed to be like a partnership deal. That it was supposed to be like the nine on the valley and nine on the ridge, and and I don't know if this is accurate or not, and that that kind of fell apart, but that there was supposed to be some kind of joint effort there, and this was I think maybe before Sweetens was even Sweetens, it might have been when it was unknown what was gonna happen with with Sweetens, but uh that was pretty fascinating to me. And I've also heard I have not played Suwani, but I've heard it's incredible that it's a lot of fun and that I need to get up there and play it as soon as possible.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, if you're see, this is the problem. It's like you've it's gotta be you've got you're staying over the night in the valley to go play Sweetens in the morning because you've got to play that in the evening round, or else it's kind of just an awkward situation because like if you're if you're spending the money and you've got the day ticket at Sweetens, like you don't want to like be like, hey boys, I'm gonna miss the morning round because I'm going up to the hill, or like you don't want to be like, hey guys, I'm gonna I'm gonna dodge out before sunset and like miss the hangout. Yeah, miss golden hour and hanging out on the patio and like like throwing balls in the green and like doing all the stupid stuff, you know? Right. And so like that's where it's kind of tough for me. Like now it's like, okay, like if we're doing sweetens, we're doing sweetens. Uh and like it does it fit fit back in on the Nashville back to Nashville travel day. And you know, I can't wait to see what um the municipal park stuff happens there, because then that could be a really great, easy weekend for a lot of guys to fly to Nashville, play 18 at um one of the cool new municipals that um I forget he's doing that. He's just on Feed the Ball, but I forget. Um there they brought in some really good people to do that. And so there's gonna be some change at the Nashville municipal courses. Okay. Um and then you can go play Swanee. Yeah, yeah. That's gonna bug me. What is trying to guide who's doing the Nashville? Yeah, it's Bruce, I think. Uh he was just on Feed the Ball. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Um if you could blow up a single hole that is world renowned, and I so now I've given you a broad topic, but uh uh uh a hole that people put on postcards and on artwork, but you think is horrendous, what hole would it be?
SPEAKER_00Um I mean that's tough. I think probably the hole that I dislike the most as a concept, but is like most regarded as like 17th uh the island green, but like I get it there. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like I get it, like it like in the original concept of it, it's so it's like it's not that like frustrating to me. I think like I I blew up the whole concept of a of needing a signature hole. I think that did a lot of damage. Yeah. Um I think if you're trying to hang your hat on having one good golf hole, like I mean, I'm I'm a guy that will go see a golf course for one good golf hole, but I don't know how many guys are gonna w want to come back. Um, and I I I think like as you know, as as someone that runs a business, like it's it's not about the guy that checks in once, it's about the guy that keeps coming back. Um, and so like trying to trying to build a whole business and a brand around that is like tough for me. Um like I I I know it better than most because like I grew up here in Southern Alberta where like it was all tourist golf, like you know, um big, big postcard, big resort stuff. And it I it's not that I don't dislike those holes, but the ones that actually worked and are good resort courses like Banff and Jasper, all the holes are decent. You know what I mean? Like it's not just you know, oh well, you know, you're walking up happy because you gotta hit it down the hill, you know what I mean? Like, cause like those ones are are always the good holes there. It's it's it's the holes that are around back and that they just kind of like our ugly stepchildren, that they just kind of like you know, push it off to the side that are the ones that kill me. Right. Because it's still like you know, like I I just think about how you know it's gonna cost you near a hundred million dollars to build a golf course now. If you want to build a full 18. God, is that what it cost? Well, like, you know, you know, you're 60, 80 million dollars in if you're trying to scrape the barrel, but you know, you're you're 20 million dollars if you want to like if you're having to like change zoning and you're having to bring all that stuff in, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, I'm quoting almost 20 to do certain renovation stuff. Wow, that is that's mind blowing. I I knew it was a big number, I didn't realize it was it's like frustrating because like I'm trying to do stuff like some of the stuff that I really want to do is like five, six million dollars. Okay, which is still like a lot of money, yeah, but like that's something that you could at uh attainably raise with a you know a good group of friends. You know what I mean? Like enough people passing the hat around, right? So yeah, um, but like you know, you get up to like an irrigation system is like five, six million dollars. Okay, right? And then so like all the other stuff, you know, you're at 20 to build the golf course, 25, then you're building the housing, all that other stuff that you need around it, so that's another 30, 40, right? So you it it adds up quick, right? And like that's the real problem with this stuff. So, like if you're gonna like spend that much money and you're gonna be that much of a drain on the resources, you're gonna be doing all this stuff, like why not care enough to like make all 18 holes special and interesting questions? And why are we leaning on like you know, old things? You know what I mean? Like, oh, I did that here like 20 years ago and I've been doing it for 20 years. Like, let's keep it rocking, you know what I mean? Like, there's a certain group that are doing it, and it's very frustrating to me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. No, I I agree. That's that's that's well said. Uh you if you could build a golf course anywhere in the world, where would you build one?
SPEAKER_00Um, I mean, it'd be cool to do one here in Southern Alberta. Um, well, back home in Southern Alberta. I don't know if you've seen photos of Banff and Jasper and the foothills up there. It's just wonderful. It looks incredible, absolutely incredible. Um, and it's it's underserved. And um I think that that's kind of why I got into this whole thing. Um, as much as you know, I I love Scotland, I loved England, and I I I love to, you know, add my name and my voice to that conversation. Like I'd be you know, beside myself if I didn't get to work at home, but work in work in my hometown, you know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um that's really cool. That's very cool. Is there a uh a an architect or um because I know you're in this industry, but is there Someone that you would love to work with.
SPEAKER_00I'm very lucky that I've gotten to work with a majority of my favorite people. Um I'd say I'd like to work more with, you know, Mike Young and Tom Doak.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um I haven't gotten to work with Gil Hance yet. Um I'd love to. Um I haven't gotten to work with David Make a Kid, but like I'm not feasting for it. Um I but like the time that I spent with Tom and the time that I spent with Bill and Ben, those are like my some of my favorite experiences. So I'd really like to get back with them, do some more with them. I'm happy with where I'm at, you know? Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Where did you work with Corden Crenshaw?
SPEAKER_00Uh I helped do Cabot Cliffs. Oh, sick. Yeah, that was my first job.
SPEAKER_01Really?
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And what were you doing on that project?
SPEAKER_00Shaping or what literally, yeah, just bunker beach boy for like shaping and like finish work and shoveling and raking of like and doing out of place stuff and like making sure she's stuff tied in and making sure all the heads were good and like all the little detail finish shaping stuff that I did out there. It was good, it was good practice. Like I'm really happy I did it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, um, but it wasn't any.
SPEAKER_02How much time?
SPEAKER_01So just you you kind of uh and uh the idea bubble went off in my head. A bunker. Let's just take a bunker, a general bunker that's greenside. How many hours go into the shaping, preparation, and installation of a bunker? As we see.
SPEAKER_00So man hours to get from like finished to there. Um it's probably about 60 to 70 hours. Wow. Okay. Of work. Um if I'm doing it, that's like, you know, and then that's just on me estimating from like the time that I do it myself, and then if I had help, yeah. Wow, because I can do with the help, I can do it in a day and a half, but I need like six guys. Okay.
SPEAKER_01And the shaping, the shaping always fascinates me because you're on a dozer, and how much and that's where I'm sure there's a fine line, and this is something I bet you've got a pretty strong opinion of or opinion on of leaving the land as it was found versus altering it and shaping it into something different depending on the landscapes. What how where do you fall on that? I mean, I'm sure it's case by case depending on kind of the canvas you're given for back of lack of a better word, but what is and I know there's plenty of things that are over-architect and over-constructed that could have been left alone, but uh are you more minimalist or are you let's get in and do the work?
SPEAKER_00I'm just trying to fit the golf to the site. Okay. Um if it's I mean, I I just don't like to change as much and I don't like to fight things just because I've learned the mother nature wins. Yeah, right. That's a great point. Like the that's my criticism to like when you're trying to really overwork something, is there's gonna be a failure in that system at some point, and like how expensive is that failure? And are the clients willing to take that risk and do that? Yeah, right? Like, if if you want to the stuff that you can do with grown grass now, um, if you want to float a green out there in the middle of the ocean and like on some stilts, you and hit a ball to it, we can do that and call that a golf hole, right? There's no nothing in the rule book that says against it. Like, look at what Johnny Morris has done down at like his big cedar project, right? Like, like that's like literally fantasy land stuff, right? Fancy golf. Right, and no, but like you can do that, and it can still be golf, and you can still and it it works for a certain clientele and it works for a certain ownership. Um, that's not necessarily my golf, the stuff that I really want to be working on, and adds passion in my life, but like as long as it's like not like offensive and it's not like you know, like so overbuilt that I'm just like sitting there like, oh, like where is this? Like, I was out at Shadow Creek and it was like fine, like it looked cool and it was like very interesting. You saw how it was done, it was very cool. Um, it's just not my thing, like it's just not for me, and just one move let like just because I don't want to worry about what nature's gonna do. Yeah, no, and that I love that you said that. That's so have you have you been out to Landman? Uh, I'm going this year, hopefully. Nice. So, Trev, my good friend Trevor Dormer, who actually met because he built all the bunkers at Kyogre Cliffs, so I was under him. Okay. Um, he's doing that old Dane project next door. And so I want to go see him and his brother. I haven't seen him in like six or seven years, and so I just want to go say hi and like just you know, see what that looks like. And so he said he'd walk me around um Landman. So I'm excited for that.
SPEAKER_01I want to hear from you after you visit it because it is the the scale of it, words don't do it justice. It is so vast. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, and Rob even said it. Rob was like, look, he was like, it the the golf course has to match the scale of the property and what you're looking at from all these different T box locations and everything. And so, I mean, he matched it beautifully, but it is it's jaw-dropping when you get up top and see everything. And I love I didn't know that you had the connection with Trev Dormer. So I think I assume he or somebody else runs the old Dane Instagram account because I've been blowing them up, hoping that they're gonna be open when I'm there in July. I don't think they will be, but I at least want to go see Old Dane what they're and what they're doing there. Because I had a blast at that place two years ago before they shut it down for the renovation. It is so much fun, and I'm sure it's only going to be even better once they get done.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, I think his brother's kind of on top of that right now. Okay. Um, I know Trev's like involved in it pretty heavily, um, but he's bouncing between the three other jobs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like New Zealand at seven mile or eight mile, whatever they're doing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, he's got Australia, he's doing some stuff with the door knock stuff. Yeah, he's also doing uh Torch K for Core Crenshaw. Okay. Um, and then he's got some work in Canada doing some other stuff, and then he's doing old Dan. So brother is busy. Um uh I'm very happy for him. Like he's one of the kindest, most gentlest humans I've ever met. Um big up to him. So, but you know, busy as heck.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Ben, I know you are eager to get moved out of your apartment. Um, and you got much better things to do than stay on here and chat with me. But thank you for taking time to come on and talk about eclectic golf and your background and everything you've got going on. I very much appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00No problem, Josh. Anytime you need me on here to uh, you know, toss some garbage around, let's uh let's do that.
SPEAKER_01I would I would love to have you on again sometime soon. Ben, uh, thanks again for coming on. I'm Josh Decker, and this has been another episode of Off the Deck.
