Off the Deck

On a New Level with Dr. David Rhoden

• BestBall • Season 3 • Episode 7

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0:00 | 51:08

In this episode, Josh Decker chats with Dr. Dave Rhoden from New Level Golf about club fitting, design, and the nuances of creating high-performance golf clubs. They explore how personalized fitting impacts game improvement and what sets New Level apart in the industry.

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SPEAKER_00

Driver off the deck. Driver off the deck. The driver off the deck. I don't know what you're on the driver. Oh my god. You have to put your foot on the gas, you pull out the driver off the deck and you put it on the drain all the way off the hill.

SPEAKER_01

Welcome back to another episode of Off the Deck. I'm your host, Josh Decker. Today we have Dr. Dave Roden joining us. Off the deck, of course, is brought to you by Ideca Golf. I'm wearing the Sebastian hoodie. It's a little cooler in Birmingham today, which love the feel instead of this hoodie. Visit ideca.gov. That's I-d-a-k-a.gov and use promo code OTD25 for 25% off your purchase. Dr. Roden, how are you doing? Doing well, man. Yourself? I'm doing great. I'm doing great. Thanks for taking time to chat uh today. Since this show began, I've wanted to have a master fitter and builder on the program because I feel like, like we were talking about in the pre-call, there are all kinds of falsehoods, misnumbers, and just things that people are so wrong about with building clubs. So I want to I want to get to that in a minute. But how did you end up doing what you're doing now and where are you working and and what does day-to-day look like for the doc?

SPEAKER_02

That's uh that's a long story. Uh I I grew up in a place where we just didn't really have a lot of access to you know club fitting and club building, things like that. So I got bored one day. I was maybe, I don't know, maybe 13, 14 years old, something like that, and decided I wanted to change my grips. Uh so kind of started doing that, watched a couple YouTube videos, you know, that kind of stuff, got into it and got them all cut off. It was a lot harder going on than it was taking them off, tell you that for sure. Uh, and then just kind of fell in love with the process, kind of fell in love with you know being able to customize stuff, being able to change stuff, being able to make it what I wanted it, uh rather than where it came from from the factory. So it was uh it was kind of a I don't know, kind of a necessity at one point, and then it just kind of turned into to loving doing it. So um been around the block a couple of times. Like I say, I started at 13 or 14 years old. I'm 32 now, so been doing it for a little while. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And how did you stuff that I needed for this? You're good, you're good. Uh how did you end up now, or how long have you been at new level?

SPEAKER_02

Uh so I was, believe it or not, I was the second employee behind the original owner. Really? So I've been here basically since day one. Um the company started in 2011. I came on actually the end of uh excuse me, 2018. Uh I came on kind of middle of 2019. So we've been here since. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So how much of that have you been able to assist and uh and offer an opinion on just from the look and feel and everything that goes into these clubs?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So uh they had he had had a couple of designs already. Um our original 623 line, uh, the original 902 line, which are kind of the two that really put us on the map. Um great heads. Uh we actually re-released the original 623M for a little while and uh in collaboration with TrueLinksware. Um so we put their dead golfer logo on the back of it. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Those are black and they were awesome.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. It turned out really good. They were they were awesome. Um and then again, we we kind of had the history with those heads as well that they were just really solid golf clubs. Um so those, like I say, those kind of put us on the map. Uh, and then with me, with Eric, uh, we both kind of we knew that there were some things that needed to be changed. Um, so we were able to address that with some of the next lines. Uh, and then ultimately the the 702 line that's out right now um is kind of a kind of a culmination of all the things that we've learned from 623 and 902 through uh the PF series, through the second 902 and 623 series, through the 480s. Um just kind of able to fine-tune here and there, pick and choose what we liked, what we didn't like. Um then again in collaboration with some of the guys that we've worked with on the tour. Um so Ryan Moore's been a big part of it. Um even Ches Review was playing the stuff for a little while. He was a big part of kind of the design side of it. Um we've got a couple other guys, Stephen Aker obviously being probably our biggest name and most success uh with the brand uh for a little while, you know, picking his brain, seeing what he likes, what he doesn't like, what we should change, what we like moving forward with, and you know, really kind of get to put it all together and make something that that to be candid has been the best iron we've ever made in sales and and reviews to back that up. So they've they've been incredible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right now the only finish I think that's available on the website is the chrome. Everything else is sold out, right?

SPEAKER_02

Uh so actually the other way around, so all the chrome stuff is pretty much sold out. We've got the raw stuff uh in stock right now. We just had we just had a refresh of the raw stuff uh like what week and a half ago. Okay. Um and they're they're starting to get a little bit low already. So we're flying through them, man.

SPEAKER_01

How do you balance the what a professional golfer wants in an iron and what me, the weekend warrior, wants?

SPEAKER_02

So that is the million-dollar question. Uh it's we get a lot of inspiration from the tour guys, you know, what what they like the look of, what they like the feel of, what they want it to do, you know, the windows they would want it to come out at. But all of that being said, it really doesn't matter to the average consumer what what a tour pro does with it, right? They're the best ball strikers on the tour, on the world. They're gonna they're gonna hit it different than I do or than you do or than anybody else on the planet does. So the big thing for us, obviously, being in the building that we're in now, we've got access to a hitting bay now. Um we do full fittings uh here in the shop. So we get to kind of pick the brains of the people that come in to do fittings, the the in-consumer, um, and get an idea for what it's missing, what we need to change, um, and contrary to that, even what they really like about it. Um and then in new generations, we get to kind of address those issues and and figure out what's good, figure out what's bad, and work our way from there.

SPEAKER_03

Nice.

SPEAKER_02

So it's it's it's kind of a collaboration between the tour and and just the everyday consumer that comes in.

SPEAKER_01

So, and that's kind of what I wanted to get into just from a fitting perspective. So we have a mutual friend, Will Robbins, and uh I was playing with Will at the Fields Club, I guess a couple months ago, and I'd already been talking to him about some irons. He had told me he's like, Man, new level is the best iron on the market. And I've actually heard him tell other people that we were playing here in Birmingham not too long ago, and someone asked, I said, What kind of iron is that? And Will looked at him just stonefaced and said, It's the best iron on the planet. You should buy it. They're new levels. Yep. Um, and I hit a few of his and I was in kind of a game improvement iron, and it uh I mean, was flagging it. I mean, it it was, and I love the sound that they make. It's more of a crack, um, which is which is a little bit different. But what's the most common mistake that when someone is getting fit that they make?

SPEAKER_02

So I think the biggest thing, and it's it's not necessarily their fault. There's been a big push on tour for it for a long time, uh, is everybody falls in love with distance. Um and distance is great. It it certainly makes it easier to score well, but it's not the end-all be-all. Um, the big thing for us, you know, we get I hate to say it this way, but we've got neighbors here. Uh, we're based out of Scottsdale. Um, so we've got neighbors here that that like to crank the loss really strong on their irons. They like to to make game improvement distance irons, which is great for the right guy. In our experience, the right guy is very far and few between. They're not very high launching, they're not very spinny, they're not they're not built in such a way that really helps the player. Yeah, it's great you hit your seven iron 200 yards, but if it's carrying 180 and it's rolling out to 200 yards, that doesn't really do us any good. Right. So so for us, like distance is big, but it has to be playable distance. So when we talk about oh, your lofty, your seven iron is 28 degrees, our five iron is 26. Like there's there's some there's some reasons there that we can't hold a green. There's some reasons there that we can't get the ball in the air. Let's do this, let's take a look, we'll get the launch right, we'll get the spin right, see where we're at, and 99% of the time they end up leaving with an iron that carries farther than what they had before, stops on a dime, just playable golf clubs, rather than okay, cool, I hit my seven iron 200 yards, but I can't hold a green. Yeah. And that's that's probably the biggest one we see. And then, you know, all the all the other ones, the lengths, the swing weights, the you know, those things, I think do different things than what people think they do. But that's kind of a kind of an issue for a different day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, and and uh so that's the first time I've ever heard someone use the phrase playable distance.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And like uh like a light bulb went off in my head, because you're absolutely right. Like it's oh cool, if I hit my seven iron, like I used 200 yards, but it's gonna roll out forever. Well, that doesn't do me any good at all. So the how how I'm actually able to use the distance matters tremendously. What yeah, what good is it if I can hit that seven oh the really cool, oh awesome, I can hit it 200 yards, but I don't I can't stop it. So that doesn't help me at all.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And on top of all that, great, it carries 200 yards, but sometimes I carry it 180, sometimes I carry it to a 10. Where where do we have 200 yards at? Where is the where is the point where this is what it's gonna do? I know it's gonna do that every time. Now I can go play golf, right? Yeah. It it's it's six and one half dozen the other, I guess, but to us, playable distance is everything.

SPEAKER_01

So in a new level, are you guys manufacturing shafts as well? Are those your shafts?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so we purchase shafts, we carry all the major brands, KBS, uh, True Temper, um Nippon, we've got Fuji Kura, we've got we've got it all. So if we don't carry it, if it's not in our line, we can definitely get it for you too.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, and how important, just in terms of the overall fitting process, how important is having the correct shaft in that club?

SPEAKER_02

Uh in my opinion, it's it means more than the head itself. Um head does a lot of things, but but shaft is the tool that gets the club on the golf ball for us, right? So if we've got a shaft that's too heavy, too light, too stiff, too soft, whatever the case may be, it makes it that much harder to get the club on the ball. Clubhead is also very important. Obviously, it's gotta launch well, it's gotta spin well, it's gotta be forgiving, it's gotta be all those things. But if we can't get the club on the ball, it doesn't matter how forgiving it is. It doesn't matter how good it feels or how good it sounds or any of those things. We need a shaft that fits, we need a shaft that helps control face rotation, helps control launch, helps control spin too. I think we again we get into some of those irons that are super high, you know, super low loft that are gonna be that kind of for lack of better term, goof-filled hollow body iron. It's hot, it's great, but then we're also we're kind of taken away from ourselves by putting a higher launching shaft, a higher spinning shaft to kind of counter that. Yeah, okay. Where we can we can kind of get away with doing what works as far as shaft goes, because we know the head is gonna do the rest of it for us. So it's it's they go hand in hand for sure. Um, I think the shaft is as cliche as it sounds, is the engine of the golf club. So we gotta make sure it works too. But head and shaft, I think, work continuously together to make it what it needs to be.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm a nine handicap and I come in to see you for a fitting. What are the main data points that you're looking at to determine what to either test me out in or like, oh yeah, here's uh but what what are those data points, data sets that you're looking at to make determinations?

SPEAKER_02

So we look a lot at ball speed, we look a lot at launch, we look a lot at spin, um, we look a lot at it's not so much a data point as much as I hate to say the eyeball test. We've been doing this quite a while, so we we have a pretty good idea when we look at a golf swing of what direction that club is moving, if it's a little across the line, if it's a little into out, you know, what all of those things look like. And we can find shafts that that help correct some of that. We can find weights that kind of help correct some of that. Um it there's not really a black and white answer to that question. Um, but for us, spin rate, launch angle, um, peak height is a big one for us, descent angle is a big one for us. Again, playable distance, right? We want it to go as far as we can, but we want it to launch at a certain at a certain angle, we want it to spin at a certain spin rate, we want it to do all the right things. If we sacrifice five, ten yards, I'm okay with that. We know it's gonna do it every time. We know we're gonna be able to throw it close to a flag and and hopefully make Birdie. That's the important thing right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um and I think, and this is where I'd love to hear just your thoughts. The the players at the highest levels are remarkably consistent with their golf swing. Correct. I, on the other hand, am not remarkably consistent with my golf swing. So how how how do you go about fitting somebody like myself who probably can't replicate the exact same golf swing over and over and over again to give you the visuals that you need?

SPEAKER_02

So I would be willing to bet that it's a little bit more consistent than you think it is. Um everybody, I say everybody, most people have some type of a swing identity. They do a similar thing every time. Okay. Yes, the numbers might look a little bit different here or there. We might be two degrees across one time and we might be six degrees across the next time, but it's gonna be across, right? So we can kind of take a look at the case.

SPEAKER_01

When you say across for for my wife that's gonna listen to this, when you say across, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02

So the little bit of the over-the-top move kind of comes from outside to inside, you know. The I say it's the standard amateur miss um kind of generally results to that big pull cut, right? Yep. If that's our shot shape. Exactly. If that's our shot shape, that's that's probably our shot shape most of the time, right? So so yeah, the numbers might look a little bit different here. There, you know, might be a little bit more one time or a little bit less one time, but the shape is generally the same. So we can we can pull different shafts that'll kind of help correct some of that, different weights, different flexes, you know, things like that that that can allow you to use the bigger muscles easier, or maybe even take some of that away from you if if the case needs um there's there's plenty of options there. Shaft manufacturers are making all kinds of different shafts. We obviously make different heads to to accommodate different players. But there's there's all kinds of options. It's fitting is one of those things, everybody thinks they gotta be a good player to to get something out of it. At the end of the day, if we're talking to a 20 handicap, getting them to a 15 is night and day for them, right? If we're talking to a scratch handicap and being like, hey, we could take you from a zero to a to a plus one or a plus two, that's night and day for them. There's it's it's all it's all relative, right? So a 30 handicap going to a 25 is a big number for them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's there's there's always an opportunity to improve. It may not be perfect right away, but there's always opportunity to improve them by getting the right gloves in their hands.

SPEAKER_01

Which you kind of uh that was one of the questions I had. It was like, okay, at what point is it worth a player to get a fitting done? Like at what point, what handicap is like, okay, yeah, it's now it's time, let's really kind of dial this in. But for you to say if we can take the 20 down to a 15, that's huge. That that implies that you've worked with players that have a handicap of 20.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I if if we were in the fitting room, I can show you some holes in the wall from you know 25, 30 handicap. It it happens, man. Everybody, everybody hits bad shots here and there, right? But how do we limit that the best that we can with the skill that we've got? And a lot of times, as as much as I hate to say it this way, I think a lot of the major manufacturers will push, okay, you're a 30 handicap, here's the biggest, most forgiving, lightest, you know, most distance involving golf club that we can make for you. Here it is, go hit it, have fun. But really, what is fun? Is fun hitting it 200 yards and shooting 170? Or is fun figuring out how to hit it 250 and shoot even part? What's right, what's better, right? I don't really again, I don't really care about hitting it 200 yards as long as I know that it's gonna do it every time.

SPEAKER_01

So how much of that if you're talking about working with a a player who has a handicap of 20 versus someone who's scratch, what are the what are the gonna be the primary differences in their club build? Is that gonna be majority shaft? And and like what what is the you find is the biggest differentiator there?

SPEAKER_02

So I think from a from a fitting standpoint, the higher the handicap, the better we're trying to make contact for them. Um so we're we're trying to get the ball as as solid as we can. When we get to the scratch handicaps, hitting it solid isn't a problem, right? So so it becomes more of a, hey man, like my miss tends to be a little bit of a draw that I don't like to see. I'd rather hit a cut. Okay, well, here's four or five options that will help encourage that cut a little bit more, kind of get away from that draw. Not to say that you can't hit it when you need it, but where can we improve on if I miss, I know that it's gonna go right, not left. Or I know that we can work away from the trouble areas and towards the strength rather than being stuck somewhere that we don't want to be. So from the fitting standpoint, I think that's the biggest answer there. That's the biggest way to make that difference. From the build standpoint, obviously the specs are the specs, you gotta build them to the specs, which I think is is probably our biggest claim to fame. Um, you know, we get guys all the time. If you look on WRX or you look on any of our our reviews, if you look anywhere online that talks about us, 99% of the time you're gonna see something of I ordered it at these specs and they came in at these specs. That's that's the biggest thing for us. I've been in big box, I've been with all the other manufacturers, I've looked at their specs. 99% of the time the spec sheet isn't what their actual golf clubs are built at. So that's crazy. It's it's it's insane. It's insane to me. Lops and lies seem to be the easiest thing on the world, but but they're never right. It's it's insane.

SPEAKER_01

Which and I was curious about just kind of what sets new level apart as a direct consumer club from the big box stuff. And for you like for someone to leave a review that says, oh, the specs were what I ordered, that is that is jarring.

SPEAKER_02

Like it is the simplest thing to be like, okay, this guy ordered this set at these specs and we hit it. Seems to be the simplest thing on the planet, but most manufacturers get it wrong. I mean, we know the horror stories. I ordered my clubs at an inch over and they came in at a half inch over, or they came at an inch under, or whatever the case may be. It's it's absolutely insane. Specs are specs, it shouldn't be that hard to hit. But yeah. People have problems.

SPEAKER_01

Is that just laziness on their part?

SPEAKER_02

Or or so this this answer is probably gonna be a little bit uh I don't know, PC is not the right word, but we get a lot of guys that the industry is the industry and it's big box and it's multi-billion dollar industry, right? So what ends up happening a lot of times is the guys that are building the golf clubs aren't really golfers, right? So they don't know they don't know what a 34 degree seven iron is. They just know that it's a seven iron and I gotta build it and it's gotta ship tomorrow. So they don't they don't know, they don't understand what the what the difference is between 34 and 33 degrees. Right? They don't know the difference between one degree up and one degree flat. They don't know those things. So the for lack of better term, maybe the care isn't quite there um compared to to us. We're we're a very small team, we're four guys in a in a build shop, basically. Um we we don't we don't fit the same mold that all the major brands do. Um we care. That's I think that's the biggest answer, is we just care.

SPEAKER_01

It's crazy to me that you just said it's just four guys. Yeah. So what's day-to-day like at the officer on there? It has to be a blast.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it's an it's an absolute blast. It's uh it's four guys in a room talking trash at each other all day and building golf clubs, man. That's what we do. Yeah. And how frequently are orders coming in? Uh so we we print orders every morning. We'll print orders probably right about lunchtime, right before lunch, right after lunch, kind of depending on how the morning went. Um myself and and another guy, DJ, kind of build everything. Um the two of us do all the fittings as well. Um so depending on what's going on there, um, some of one of us might be in a fitting while the other one's building, or vice versa. Um so the day-to-day gets pretty busy. It can get pretty hectic. We're we're pushing probably I don't know, we can do we can do probably 15 to 30 orders a day, depending on what what's going on. Um we ran a sale over Memorial Weekend. We had a we had a stack of about 160 orders, so which is great over a weekend.

SPEAKER_01

So weekend. But you said you can do 15 or 30 a day, so that means 15 sets, 15 to 30 sets that you all will fully assemble.

SPEAKER_02

We can. We're we're certainly capable of it. Um those those orders, sometimes it's a wedge, sometimes it's a driving iron, sometimes it's a set of irons, sometimes it's a demo club. You know, it just kind of depends on what's going on. But we we've pushed out, you know, Black Friday is probably our biggest, biggest time of the year. Um we always do something for Black Friday, be it you know, 10% off irons or whatever the the case may be. We do a lot of orders through that time. Um we're capable, if we do Full sets we're capable of doing 15 to 30 a day. If we have just individual irons, or we do like a sale on utilities or wedges or something like that, and we might get, you know, we might get 40 to 50. It just kind of depends on on what's going on.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I uh I spent a lot of time looking at that utility iron today. Um so that's so I got my set from Will Robbins.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I guess it's been a month or so now, and I used to be terrified of any kind of blade. Okay. And I absolutely adore standing over my four iron. Yeah. And that is the strangest mindset that I've ever been in.

SPEAKER_02

Um that's that's kind of the fun part for us, and especially with the 702 line, we were able to make it very small in comparison to the forgiveness that we get. So we're able to pack all of that forgiveness into a player's shape, into something that doesn't look like a game improvement iron, move the weight around the way that we want it to be, just make it what it's supposed to be, make it as forgiving as we can make it while still looking like a like a blade. Yeah. So I'm not I'm not surprised to hear that. Uh but second, this utility iron, what's going on with that?

SPEAKER_01

So I I'm just I'm fascinated by it. So I've got uh I have pulled my hybrid out of my bag um because we we do not get along well. Um so I've got a gap, and that's what I'm trying to solve for. Um I can get my four iron probably 215, 220. Um, and then I've got a three wood and driver. Um, so I feel like I've got I need a 230-ish. Yeah. Um, so that's what I'm trying to figure out.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. You're playing CBs, 702s?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. 21 degrees probably gonna be really good for you. Okay. Uh what shaft are you playing?

SPEAKER_01

Uh I don't know. I'd have to ask Will. I I know I'm playing something. He told me it's corked. And I was like, wait, did you cork my bat? Like, what did you do?

SPEAKER_02

Um but I'd be interested to see what shaft it is. We can get some put together for you.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Yeah, I'll uh I'll have to ping you afterwards. Uh it's first first time there's ever been a live fitting on uh on a podcast I'm aware of. We do this too, man.

SPEAKER_02

We do we do virtual uh fittings all the time.

SPEAKER_01

So really okay. So do you turn on camera and you watch the person swing? Because I was curious like uh again, back to the incon inconsistencies. Yeah, some people have really bad golf swings. And is there a point where you're like, hey, we got to get better at actually making contact with a golf ball before we can really experience the value?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. And in in my opinion, I think the industry, and not even just the golf industry, but just the indust industries in general. I think there's a big push to sell stuff, and the selling maybe isn't advantageous for the customer a lot of times. For us, I would much rather tell you, look, man, maybe we maybe we need to take some of this money that we're gonna spend on golf clubs and invest in a couple of lessons here and there and really get something dialed rather than putting you into something that, yeah, it might work today, but tomorrow it's gonna be a nightmare for us. Yeah. So I think a lot of people these days, I think, in my opinion at least, I think it's a little bit refreshing that somebody's not trying to sell me something I don't need. Right. Um, and telling me, look, man, I think you get more out of doing some lessons here and there, and if we want to do some golf clubs later, we're happy to do it for you. But let's let's work on a couple of things. Let's get that golf swing looking a little bit better, get that golf swing just better in general, make contact better. And then we can come back and revisit this and see where we're at, see what works, rather than kind of taking a guess on where you're gonna be in a year. I that's that's always been my opinion. I've done that in every every fitting uh that I've ever been in. If I don't think you're gonna get what you should get out of these golf clubs, I'm not gonna sell them to you. Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_01

Honesty. What a novel concept.

SPEAKER_02

It's it's insane, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh so uh the the 702s are out right now. Uh they're crushing it. Who what players on tour are playing those right now?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so uh Steven Alker's been playing them for since they were in prototype phase even. Um absolutely loves them. Steven's Steven is the least needy tour pro I think I've ever met in my life. I s I we legitimately we see him maybe maybe four times a year. Okay. Uh and most of the time that's to hey, can you check these offs and lies? Hey, can you maybe throw a couple of grips on for me? It's it's never a it's never a hey man, I'm not hitting these good. What am I doing? What's going on? Can we build something else? It's never that. Uh so Steven, Steven doesn't change much, uh, and his golf swing doesn't change much. So he is the least needy tour pro I've ever met. We get a lot of tinkerers too that come in, but he uh so to answer your question, 702 line, uh Steven's been playing him for a long time. Um Ryan Moore was playing him for a long time. He's not playing a whole lot on tour anymore, but um we've got some other stuff kind of in the lines that a lot of our our guys are are kind of working on right now. Um so we've got we've got a mix of guys that are playing a couple different things. Um Alistair Doherty just won on the corn ferry tour a couple of weeks ago. He's actually playing one of our older heads, okay. Um, which loves them. Um to be candid with you, we can't figure out why he loves them so much. And he can't really explain it, but he loves them. So they're gonna be in his bag for a while. Uh so we we've got positive feedback from all of the Tour Pros. Um everybody that we worked with at the 702 line looks great, feels great, does what it's supposed to do. Um it just kind of comes down to we're we're not gonna force one of these guys to go play something they don't like. So if they like one of the older models a little bit better, we have no problem with it. It still says new level on it. They're still still wearing our hat, still carrying our bag. So we have no problem. So uh exciting stuff in the works. You kind of hinted at that a little bit. Very exciting stuff in the works. We're probably looking probably early next year uh for some stuff. It's it's gonna be a little bit different than the 702 stuff. Um really solid. Uh looks great, feels great, does everything it's supposed to do, just like just like everything else we make. Um but a couple little changes that uh that I think a lot of the world is gonna like.

SPEAKER_01

Uh you said feels great, and I was curious uh how much of weight someone should put on the feel of the club versus the numbers they may be seeing on that track man.

SPEAKER_02

That's a tough one for me. Uh I I am a feel player, uh above numbers, above all of that. Um I think numbers are very important, don't get me wrong. I'm obviously a fitter first, but a player second. And uh so as long as they're close for me personally, I don't mind you know a seven iron that spins 500 RPM too high. I don't mind a shaft that maybe launches a half degree too high or two degrees too high. Like it it doesn't bother me so much. Um I I have enough game that I can manipulate the club face to do whatever I need it to do. So it doesn't bother me so much. Um and I think if you talk to a lot of the tour pros out there, they'd rather overspin it and they'd rather launch it a little bit higher than than the other way around. Uh they'd rather overspin it. I think, yeah, most tour pros will tell you they'd rather overspin it than underspin it. Okay. Especially playing out there. The greens are firm, greens are fast, they need the little bit of extra spin. So if it's spinning a little bit too much, they can always take some off. It's hard to add spin. So feel-wise, for me, I'd I think that that's a little bit more important in my own game. That said, I think we talk about it all the time. If it doesn't feel good, you're never gonna be happy with it. So let's make it feel good, number one, and number two, let's try to figure out how we can make the numbers where they need to be while still feeling good.

SPEAKER_01

That's and I guess that's yeah, that's well, that's what I've experienced with that four iron. Like, yeah, again, I never in my wildest dreams did I think I would enjoy pulling four iron. Um I mean, obviously I'd like to be closer to the the green than that. Um but it it's the feel of it, the sound of it, I love standing over it. Um, it's a copper heads, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I went to the copper heads, you're gonna hit it good.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. Um I went with the copper heads and already had some uh BBNF ferals that I sent to Will for him to do the build. Uh and I went to Auburn, so I had some custom ones done that look like the Auburn football helmet. So on that copper, it they pop. I mean it they pop it it looks really, really good.

SPEAKER_02

We've uh we've done some some kind of one-off finishes with some other things over the years, but that copper has by far been our our best, I think. Um, and had the best reaction from the the public. So uh we might bring that back out at some point. We'll see.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Um what's the craziest build you've ever gotten? In terms of specs or in terms of man. And you might have to you might have to dumb it down a little bit, but yeah, I'm just out of curiosity.

SPEAKER_02

So so we have we have a game improvement iron uh called our GI22, uh, which is built to be kind of a rocket launcher, to be for a lack of better term. Um they're they're fairly strong, they're super forgiving. They've they actually look and feel really good for for what they are. Uh but I built a set of those with KBS C Taper 130X uh at an inch and a half over and two degrees upright, which was kind of wild. Okay. There's a lot going on there. There's a lot going on there. Uh that wasn't a fitting. Uh that was just somebody that that ordered them online. But the question is always asked who who needs a super gamer improvement iron with a KBS 130 super low long spin shaft. It's it it doesn't make sense on paper to me, but he uh he actually sent us a review uh shortly after that and said he loved them. So I guess it worked, but it's it's never something that I would think I would ever put in somebody's hand.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah.

SPEAKER_02

If it works, it works.

SPEAKER_01

And so you guys have done wedges, utility irons, uh, and then the irons. Any plans for drivers or anything like that down the road? Zero. Zero. Really? Zero.

SPEAKER_02

Uh so for us, the the hard part being as as small as we are, being four guys in a in a building, it's number one, the RD takes a lot of time, it takes a lot of effort, it takes a lot of money to do, it takes a lot of just knowledge of number one, where everybody's at right now, from the major manufacturers to the other, you know, D2C companies. You have to know what you're competing against right now, but the bigger part of that is you have to know what you're competing against, you know, two years from now, by the time all the RD is done, by the time we get product in our hands, um, and by the time we're ready to build and ship, you know, some of the other manufacturers might already come out with two other drivers by then.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So it's not so much what are we competing against today, it's what are we competing against two years down the road. That's a that's a hard conversation to have. That's a hard thing to to judge. When you're some of the big manufacturers and you've already know what's in the pipeline for the next three or four years, we can kind of compete with what you know the generation prior is doing. But for us trying to get into it, it just it's it's a lot of time, it's a lot of effort, it's a lot of money, it's a lot of things that to be candid with you, we just don't have yet. Um, so so wood's probably not gonna happen. Um, we had a hybrid out for a little while. Um, you still might be able to find some on the website. It was good for the right guy, wasn't great for the the general population, I would say. Um so we decided to kind of turn that off too. Um so from driving iron to wedges, um, we know we're good at them. We know that that what we've done in the past has worked and we know where we're going with those. Um so we kind of try to focus on that as much as we can. And you know, the woods, it's kind of by the time we get everything said and done, you're still gonna go buy a ping because it feels better and it goes farther and it does all the things. So it's it's not our market. Um our market is to make really good forged irons and wedges.

SPEAKER_01

Which there's something to be said about like knowing your lane and staying in it and just crushing it, right?

SPEAKER_02

Like um the easiest thing I can say is Scotty Cameron is known for making putters, he's not gonna make irons. Right. Right. That's not his place. His his place is to make really good putters.

SPEAKER_01

So in terms of RD and just kind of what you were touching on there, if you guys have like you've already got something else in the works, what is lead time on those being forged and arriving there in Scottsdale for you to then assemble once they go live? Like just timeline on developing a golf club head, having it forged, arriving to you.

SPEAKER_02

So from from start to finish, you know, doing all the RD, doing all that good stuff, we're probably about a year out. Um that gives us time to get. It sounds funny to say this, but we kind of do it the old school way. Um, for lack of better term, we kind of sketch stuff out on a cocktail napkin and and see what it looks like, see what it kind of what we think it'll do. Um I say that we actually use an iPad and do it all fancy and digital and all that good stuff, but uh we'll send that kind of off to the factory and say, you know, this is kind of what we want it to look like, this is what we want it to do. Um, these are the lofts and lies that we're thinking, um, this is where we want the CG to be. Um and then again, we'll send them that kind of rough sketch of what we want it to look like. Um and they'll come back with a with a CAD version of it um where we can kind of fine-tune what exactly we want it to be. Um so through all that process, um, actually getting prototypes made, getting those in stock or in store, um, building a couple of sets of those for like I say, it's four of us. So we build our four sets, we build some sets for you know some of the tour players, some of those kind of things, and and get their opinions on it too. Um the entire process is probably about a year or so. Um so 702s came out what, 702s have been around for about a year and some change now. Um they were out for probably five or six months before we kind of started to be like, okay, let's talk about next year. So crazy. It yeah, it it goes pretty quick. It sounds like a year is a long time. I know it does, but it's it's by the time we get all the RD stuff done, get them ordered. Um it's about a 90-day turnaround from the day we say, Okay, these are good to go, push the button, send them. About 90 days from that point to when they show up at our door. And then again, doing all the photos, doing all the other good stuff.

SPEAKER_01

About a year. Yeah, okay. And you're right, like I'd never even thought about the the competition of like a titleist, for instance. Yeah, they they have an entire RD staff that is more employees than you have a new level.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Just their engineering team alone is bigger than our entire company.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, which is which is wild.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So what's been the highlight? You've been there now, so you said you started in 2019, so this what seven years? What's been a highlight for you working there?

SPEAKER_02

Oh man. Uh, I would so the original owner sold it a couple years ago. Um, the ownership group that we're with now uh has a lot of different hands and a lot of different fires. Um, the biggest of which allows us access to a lot of tour pros. Um so being being able to kind of pick their brains on what they like, what they don't like. Um, you know, we talked about Ryan a little bit earlier. Ryan has hit pretty much every iron you can name. Uh, so he's got a lot of ideas and a lot of opinions on what was good and what was bad and a lot of these other irons. And we're able to pick his brain a lot um as far as what was good and what was bad about all the irons he's ever played, and really kind of pick what's good and change what's bad, um, and make ultimately make the end product that much better. So picking tour players' brains is probably my biggest thing, I would say.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um and then you know, getting to kind of build a little bit of a relationship with some of these guys. JJ Spawn comes in here all the time. He works out in the gym that's attached to our building. Oh, that's cool. So he's in all the time. We got to pick his brain about the US Open and you know what was going through his brain when that putt went in and you know, all that fun stuff. It's I would say the relationships that are built with some of those guys is probably the the highlight of where we're at now. Um and then again, seeing you know, stuff that that I've had a hand in in the design process or the build process or the fitting process um that have had big success on on their respective tours. I say Steven's obviously set the world on fire on the champions tour. Um Alistair Dockerty got his first corn parry win here not too long ago, um, got him into the open championship uh for next year, which is huge. Um there's there's been a lot of really cool stuff uh that you know, not to not to sound cocky or ego-y, but you know, to be some part of that is is pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01

Oh yeah, for sure. Well, and I guess have you have you had an instance yet where a a tour pro has come to you and asked for something for you guys like tasked you with building something that is unique to what you currently offer? Like almost a complete 180, like let's change things entirely.

SPEAKER_02

Like is that uh yes and no. Um we've we have one iron that we designed for one specific player, um, which ended up being a pretty pretty solid iron. Um he was kind of the reason that that iron exists, to be totally honest with you. Uh so yes, to answer your question, but also not not a lot. Yeah. Um the the biggest thing I think that we see is maybe, you know, Steven, for instance, getting a little bit older here and there, right? Golf swing changes, speed changes a little bit. I think most of those guys, the biggest changes you see are okay, maybe we take, you know, a step back and swing weight, or maybe we take a step back and shaft weight, or you know, it's more of those kind of things, and they're not big changes. Um, you know, golf swing changed a little bit, now I need my lies, you know, a couple degrees flatter, you know, those kind of things. But they're not really invent reinventing the wheel, so to speak. Um minor changes more than anything, I would say. It's fun, though. It's it's all it's all good.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and like there's something just uh romantic or not, it's not the right word, but something nice about you being one of four people and the flexibility and how nimble and like you guys can pivot on a dime. Like if you wanted to change things tremendously, you could. Not that you want to do that, but that's just that's unique in the space, I think. Is that a fair statement?

SPEAKER_02

Absolutely, absolutely. We have we have four guys that have to agree on something, not not you know, the four guys in the room, four guys in the room, all of us, plus the ownership, plus everybody else. We got we got four guys that make that decision. Uh so for us to all be on the same page is probably a little bit easier than it is for some of the bigger OEMs. Um and everybody everybody here is pretty like-minded, everybody's a golf nerd in this place. You know, I can I can I'm terrible with names, but I can tell you if I see your name come across my table, I can tell you exactly what irons you're playing that I built two years ago.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

So it's that's wild. It's funny. I am awful with names, but I can tell you your specs, and I met you two years ago. I think it's it's so we're we're nerds, man.

SPEAKER_01

This is this is what we do, this is why we do it. How so, and I'm a huge fan of TrueLinks. Like I wear their stuff daily. I've got the knits on right now. Like they're I love their shoes. Love their shoes. How did that partnership come about with the Dead Golfer Irons? I didn't buy I didn't purchase any, but they are sick.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, so uh the ownership group that owns TrueLinx Wear uh is actually the same ownership group that owns us as well. Um so they are they are effectively sister companies of ours. Yeah. Um so the the we're kind of the same in the way that we do things. We're for a lack of a better term, kind of that minimalist type mindset. Um so we're not gonna hit you with giant logos, we're not gonna hit you with you know crazy colors and you know really trying to change a lot, but we're really good at doing the absolute best stuff that we can do without the flashing the the excitement of some of the other brands. So the the collaboration between the two of us is a is a very simple and easy process. Um again, they're very like-minded as to us, um, kind of that smaller company feel, um, while still making really good quality product. So it's it's an easy thing for us to to bounce ideas off of each other. And you know, all of us were true link stuff, and all the true links wear guys play new level stuff. So it it all it all works back and forth easy. That's cool. Have you have you played in their thing out at Gamble Sands? Uh I did not get to do the Gamble Sands one. Uh they did an event here uh actually in Phoenix, uh the duel in the desert last year, yeah before maybe, uh, which we did play in. Um obviously being in our backyard, we kind of had to show up and dominate, you know. So Right, right. Yeah. So that was that was a blast. The Gamble Sands thing uh looked awesome. I I wish I was a part of it, but somebody had to stay to home and and hold the fort down.

SPEAKER_01

So take it and build and build sets of irons, complete order.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly. Yep.

SPEAKER_01

What's your favorite track to play around Scottsdale?

SPEAKER_02

Oh man. Public, I would say Southern Dunes is probably top of that list. Okay. Um Southern Dunes, they they do a lot of USGA events out there. It's a really, really good golf course. I think if I'm not mistaken, I think it's a Freddie Couples golf course. Um so it's it's everything. You want. It is there are so many T's out there that you can play a T that makes sense for you. I'm kind of a long ball hitter, so I like to play it all the way back and still get to hit every club in the bag. There's a lot of golf courses out here where I hit driver and wedge on every hole, and it's it's a lot less fun that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So some of the par fives, when they get them stretched out, I've got to hit five woods into greens. I've got to hit driving iron into green. I've got to hit, you know, the par threes. There's a couple of them that are 200 plus. So it can play tough. Uh, but it's always in good shape. The greens are great. Um golf ball does what it's supposed to do. It's tough, but it's fair. So it's probably my favorite golf course out here. Um Papago's really good. Um par threes, again, are outrageously hard. Uh so gotta gotta bring the lawn clubs there. Um But there's there's so much good golf here, man. There's there's too many golf courses here to even mention all of them.

SPEAKER_01

It's it's insane. Uh have you spent much time out at Whisper Rock?

SPEAKER_02

Uh no. That's that's actually the one that I haven't gotten out to yet. Okay. I've I've played all the other good ones out here. I've played the Silver Leafs, I've played Mirabelle, I've played, you know, all those, but Whisper Rock is the one I haven't gotten out to yet.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's it sounds like the stories that come out of that place are just legendary from Tour Pros.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah. It's uh it's it's basically the PGA Tour in a country club. Yeah, that's crazy. Every every PGA tour pro in the area is a member of Whisper, it seems. Okay. Yeah. What's your favorite club in the bag right now? My uh I would say my 46 degree uh spin V3. Okay. So I can play it as a pitching wedge. Um so I don't I don't carry pitching wedge, I carry the 46 degree uh spin. Uh it is incredibly easy to flight, so I can hit it a little bit lower and penetrating and spin it still. Um I can hit it as high as I want to. Um it's it's kind of a it's a jack of all trades for me. Um so I can hit it just like a regular pitching wedge, it carries about 150. Um but I can also dial it back to to 130 if I need it. So it's it's just versatile. I love it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Uh what's what's like uh in the last 12 months, uh course that was new to you, what's what's been your favorite one that you've played?

SPEAKER_02

That's a good question. Uh I went out to that's a good question, man. I don't know. I haven't thought about that.

SPEAKER_01

Nowhere new you've played lately that really just sparked your imagination?

SPEAKER_02

That's the thing, man. I get I get stuck out here. We end up playing the same four golf courses all the time. So uh the last one I went to, I took a trip to Hildenhead, uh, which was probably the last new golf course I played. We played the uh there's a golf trail out there. The name escapes me for some reason. Uh RTJ, Robert Trend Jones. Oh, in Birmingham, in Alabama. Yeah, no, so in uh no, in Hilton Head.

SPEAKER_01

There's uh there's an RTJ trail in Alabama or in in Hilton? I did not know that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, there's a couple of courses out there. Um so that was that was probably the last one that I I remember playing a new golf course. Okay. Uh it was great. It was great. Golf course was awesome. Um kind of runs up alongside the the ocean on a couple of holes there. Oh yeah. Uh it is absolutely incredible. Um if you ever get the chance, certainly worth it. Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01

Certainly worth it. If you could put together a dream for some who would be in it. Dead or alive matter? Dead or yeah, dead or alive.

SPEAKER_02

So I would love, I would love to play around at golf with Arnie. Um just to hear the stories, just to pick his brain, just to, you know, everybody knows about the club collection. I'm a club nerd, so to to pick his brain on what over the years, what has surprised him with some of the technologies that have come out, you know, those kind of things would would be an absolute dream to me. Um obviously Tiger's got to be on the list, I would think. Yeah. Uh and then there's there's a couple other guys that might surprise you. I'd love to play with JJ again. Um he's one of the nicest guys I've ever met. Uh so what you see on TV is is him.

SPEAKER_01

Um He seems like he'd just hang out and chat.

SPEAKER_02

Like he just wits at the bar with us and have a beer. He does, man. Like I say, he'll he'll come in after workout and just kind of hang out, shoot the shit with us and and talk about golf, man. That's that's that's him in a nutshell. Um there's a couple other guys. Uh Mark Mulder, I would probably put on that list. Um he's again, he's a big guy that's been around here a long time. Um he'll come in and again just sit down in the chair in the build shop and talk to us while we're building golf clubs like it's nothing. Um would have been a Hall of Fame player, uh uh pitcher for the so he played for the uh uh athletics for a little while and then played for the Cardinals. I'm a big Cardinals fan. So getting to meet him was kind of uh watched him on TV growing up all the time. So watching watching his golf swing and build some golf clubs for his kids and you know those kind of things is always fun. That's cool. Um yeah, but I there's there's more than four, I would say.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you could have two, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh Dave, I really appreciate you taking time to come on the show and chat. Um I'm definitely gonna figure out what shafts I have in my iron so we can figure out this utility situation. Absolutely. Let me know. And I'm out that way occasionally, so I'll definitely give you a shout and would love to come by and see the store and everything. We're always here. Let us know. Awesome. Well, for Dr. Dave Roden, I'm Josh Decker. This has been another episode of Off the Deck.

Head Shot

Josh Decker

Host